[Interview begins with explanation that Ahmad should just give the details he remembers, and if he is not sure about something he should say so]
Q: Where were you when you first heard the helicopter had come down?
A: I was at home. I just came back from the mosque to the house and I heard the news and headed to the area.
Q: Which mosque had you been at?
A: I wasn’t praying at the mosque. I was next to Forkan mosque helping a friend with a broken-down car.
Q: Did people see you there?
A: Plenty of people.
Q: How did you hear that the helicopter had come down.
A: People in the street were talking about a helicopter coming down and one of my relatives heard and came to tell me.
Q: What did you do next?
A: I immediately headed towards the location.
Q: Which vehicle were you using?
A: Opel.
Q: What colour?
A: Dark blue.
Q: Who was in the car?
A: It was me, Sattar (driver) and Ali (NBC stringer)
Q: What did you have in the car?
A: Cameras.
Q: What happened when you arrived near the helicopter crash site.
A: We didn’t find a way to reach the crash site so we tried another
route. I found Salem Ureibi there. I suggested another route to try to
get closer to the site. We went but saw that the Americans were there
so we turned back.
Q: Who was with you at this time?
A: There were two cars, me Sattar and Ali in one car and Salem Ureibi in the other car.
Q: Was Salem’s driver there also?
A: Yes.
Q: What happened next?
A: Salem suggested we film a little from where we were so we stopped.
Salem got out of his car carrying the tripod. I don’t remember if he
was carrying a camera.
Q: Can you describe the location where this was happening?
A: There were a few houses and farmland.
Q: Were you on a road?
A: Yes it was a road.
Q: Were there American soldiers close by?
A: Very far away. When Salem started filming, the Americans started
shooting. We weren’t sure if they were aiming at us or not. We drove
off and there was a curve in the road, and we heard the shooting.
Q: When you first heard the shooting, were you filming?
A: The Americans were standing far away. It was a matter of a few
seconds. A tank started heading towards us. We left before Salem
Ureibi, and then I heard the shooting.
Q: So to confirm, did you leave before you heard any shots fired?
A: When we saw the tank turning and coming towards us, then I left and we heard the shooting?
Q: That was you, Sattar and Ali?
A: Yes. It was me, Sattar and Ali in the first car. Salem left right behind us.
Q: Did you speak to the soldiers when you got there to say you would be filming?
A: No. I did not even start filming. It all happened in a matter of
seconds. The Americans were far away, at least one km. When Ali saw the
American tank moving towards us through his camera viewfinder, he said:
“Let’s leave, the Americans are coming”.
Q: What were you carrying?
A: A camera with no tripod. A camera similar to Salem Ureibi’s.
Q: After you drove away and heard shooting, what happened next?
A: Salem Ureibi was following us. Then we arrived in Falluja. Then
Salem said he would send his tape back to Baghdad and join them again.
Then we headed towards the crash site from the bridge area.
Q: What was were you fired on and what time did you head back?
A: I’m not sure if the firing was aimed at us. It was around 2 o’clock.
Q: And what time did you get back to Falluja and decide to return to the area?
A: This was just 10 minutes later, it is a small area.
Q: Did you hear any firing from anywhere else or just from the direction of the Americans.
A: Just from the direction of the Americans.
Q: Were there other people around who saw you?
A: I saw one farmer. There were no cars on the road. Among the trees, I don’t know.
Q: So when you went back to the scene, after you had been in Falluja, how many of you were there and what vehicles did you use?
A: Salem Ureibi joined us in our car because he sent the tape to
Baghdad with his own driver and then we headed to the crash site.
Q: What happened then?
A: We were on a main street. We started asking local people about the
location of the crash site, because it seemed the incident happened
among houses and trees and fields, we did not know where it was. Locals
showed us one way. We stopped near a school that was far away from the
Americans. Then many journalists arrived in the area. They all stopped
together. Plenty of people from nearby houses gathered.
Q: Did you know some of the journalists? Did you recognise them?
A: There was the AP photographer and others. There were a lot of jorunalists and media cars.
Q: Did you film anything from there?
A: No, at this point I had not used my camera. I took one picture when
I was on the main road of helicopters flying over Falluja. Then, where
we were stopped, an American tank started moving towards us.
Q: Moving towards all the journalists?
A: Yes, in the place where all the journalists gathered. We were
considering coming back to the main street and then Salem Ureibi’s
Thuraya rang. Then the Americans came. We decided to leave because the
Americans may not have wanted to see people gathering in the area.
Q: Did all the journalists make that decision or just you?
A: They all made the decision. The media cars were parked in different
directions. Our car was parked in the direction of a narrow road. Again
when we saw the tank coming towards us we drove off and ended up at a
dead-end. When we arrived at the end of the dead-end street we wanted
to turn but found out that Americans had surrounded us.
Q: Where were they arrested? Were they in a car?
A: When the Americans arrived we opened the car doors and walked out
with our hands in the air. They were firing near us, firing up in the
air.
Q: The Americans were firing in the air?
A: Yes.
Q: And then what happened?
A: We had our hands in the air and the Americans started speaking to
us, but we couldn’t understand what they were saying. A group of
soldiers came towards us. Others were on their tanks and others
encircled the area. The soldiers who came to us were very angry. They
took hold of us by the neck and pushed us to the ground. They threw us
on our stomachs and put their feet on our backs, with guns pointed at
our head. They took all our personal belongings from our pockets,
money, IDs, radios. They found Salem Ureibi’s radio so they took it.
They handcuffed us, and put plastic bags on our heads. They put us in
their jeep.
Q: Did you have any time to explain you were journalists?
A: They saw our IDs. In five minutes they drove us away a short distance. They held us there for nearly an hour.
Q: Did you know where you were being held?
A: I couldn’t tell but it was an open area because I could see the
light coming through the bag. We believe it was the place where
Americans had encircled the crash site.
Q: You still had the bag on your head?
A: Yes. I was lying on my belly in the vehicle. It was approximately
1530, between 1500 and 1530. Then they took us a few metres away. They
put us in a tank.
Q: Did you know it was a tank?
A: It sounded like an armoured personnel carrier, a tracked vehicle.
They lifted the seats inside the APC, put us under the seats, then
pushed the seats on our backs. That was the most difficult part,
because of the pressure on our bodies. The soldier sitting on the seats
had his legs placed around my neck, pressing down. If I moved my neck
left or right, he would hit me or press harder with his foot on my head.
Q: Where did he hit you?
A: Everywhere. They kept us in this vehicle for more than one or two
hours. Then the vehicle moved. They drove a long way, from Falluja to
their base. When we got there they took us out, asked us our names.
Q: Were you still handcuffed and blindfold?
A: Yes, and on the floor. When they took us out of the vehicle, I tried to stand up at least three times and fell down.
Q: Were you pushed down?
A: I fell down, nobody pushed me. I could hardly breathe. They put us against another car.
Q: Did you still have a bag on your head?
A: Yes, they drove us a long way, I don’t know how long. Then they
grabbed us by our necks. It was already night, and they led us to a
hall. They released our hands and took off the bags, and put us with
other prisoners.
Q: How many other prisoners?
A: I don’t know. It was a big hall. Maybe 40 or 50 prisoners. We asked
the prisoners where they were from. They said they were detained in the
market. They were detained on the same day. We remained seated on the
ground, we didn’t have our shoes. They took our shoes when we were
first arrested. They kept us sitting there until 10 or 12.
Q: Did you know the time?
A: No, I’m guessing. They gave us one blanket between two people, a
small blanket. We didn’t know whether to put it on the floor, because
the floor was cold, or put it on our bodies. The hall had four windows
on one side and another four on the other side and an open door. We
were seated and whenever we turned to our colleagues or tried to speak
to them we were punished. They were saying “No sleep, no sleep.”
Q: How did they punish you?
A: They would make people lift their hands in the air, make them go up
and down from their knees, put them against the wall with their hands
out and leave them there for hours.
Q: Did that happen to you? Were you forced to stand up against the wall?
A: No. I was exhausted and cold. They let us sleep around 2. They were
checking people’s eyes with torches and if they found anyone sleeping
they would take them away and punish them. But then around 2 o’clock
they allowed us to sleep. But it wasn’t real sleep because the floor
was too cold. In the morning they gave us some food that was inedible.
The smell of it made me feel sick.
[Brief break, a large explosion sounded in Baghdad and tape was briefly turned off while we radioed office]
A (cont): In the morning they took us to the toilet with a bag on our
heads. Soldiers were hitting us on the way to and back from the toilets.
Q: beating with what?
A: With their hands. Even if my clothes touched the barbed wire fence,
I would be hit. Around 11 they took me for interrogation. It was in a
metal container, a caravan, with chairs. [Ahmad demonstrates how he was
forced to kneel, with his feet in the air and his arms raised in the
air]. If my hands or feet went down they would hit me. The
interrogation lasted three or four hours. They put tissue paper in my
mouth. I could hardly breathe. They said that we had fired at the
helicopter. I said: “I swear to God it wasn’t me.” They said: “If you
swear to God again, we’ll break you into a thousand pieces.”
Q: Who said that?
A: The Arab translator.
Q: So for the whole interrogation you had paper in your mouth?
A: No, for about one hour.
Q: And they were still asking questions when you had paper in your mouth?
A: They placed it in my mouth about half way through the interrogation.
They said it was to relieve my sweating. When I said: “I swear to God”,
the Arab translator translated it to the Americans and one of the
Americans hit me.
Q: With his hands?
A: Yes.
Q: Across your face?
A: On my face and body.
Q: How severe was the beating? Was it enough to leave a mark?
A: Enough to knock me over. When I was knocked over they helped me up
again. But if I fell down again they would come over and hit me more.
There was a shoe on the ground and they told me to chew it and to lick
it. They made me suck my middle finger. They told me to stick my middle
finger in my anus and then lick it.
Q: They made you do that?
A: Yes.
Q: Was this the American interrogators or the Arab translator?
A: They were talking among each other but I was told to do it by the translator.
Q: What did they look like? Could you see their faces when they were talking to you?
A: There were three of them
[Interview interrupted by news on the radio that a helicopter has crashed. Brief break while news coverage is sorted out].
Q: Interview resuming at 2:50. Please continue talking about the interrogation. We were talking about the interrogators.
A: There was one Arab and two Americans.
Q: What happened at the end of this interrogation?
A: They took me back to the same big hall, but to an adjacent small
room. I was sitting on the ground. The room did not have a door but it
was guarded outside. I was made to sit this way [demonstrates arms held
out] with my face to the wall.
Q: Were you alone in this room?
A: yes.
Q: Had you already explained to the interrogators that you were a journalist.
A: I said I was a journalist. They said they would close down Reuters because of me.
Q: So you were in this small room. What happened next?
A: Every time I moved they would hit me. When the interrogations of Ali
and Sattar and Salem were over they took us all into a room that was
three metres by three, and started abusing us.
Q: Abusing you how?
A: With different kinds of abuse. To sit on the ground was forbidden.
They made me suck my thumb. They made me lie on the ground and shake my
backside in the air. They were taking photographs.
Q: Iraqi?
A: I’m not sure.
The Arab interpreter said we should not touch the
barbed wire because it would harm us.
They said they would take us
inside, give us a blanket and a mattress and a place for us to pray.
At
this point we were trembling from the cold. For three days I was
trembling with cold.
They moved us from the barbed wire area to another
area, took off the bags from our heads, and cut the handcuffs.
They
gave us an intensive body search. They took us to another place where
they told us to keep our faces to the ground. We were in a reception
area. They took us to a room and put each of us in a different corner
of the room.
They made us crouch down with our faces to the wall. We
stayed like that for three or four hours. Then we were taken away for
interrogation, one by one.
They took me to a room and made me sit in
the same position. They brought a female American interrogator and a
translator. The interrogator sat on a chair. It was warm and I started
to breathe properly.
They asked me questions about January 2, what
happened from the moment I woke up to the time I was captured. Then
they left me alone, then came back, asked me more questions, and left.
They came back again, female and male soldiers. They gave me slippers.
They took me to a doctor to see if anything was wrong with me, the
doctor said no.
I said I had a strong headache and was given some
pills. It was already dark, around 8 p.m. Then they made me walk to
another location, I was given a mattress and a blanket and a bottle of
water and bags of food.
They put me in another hall. I had not slept
for three days, with no food. There were two biscuits in the food bag,
I ate them, and slept.
Around four or five in the morning, at dawn,
they woke me up again, and took me to the toilet. They threw stones at
the toilet door. Then they brought me back to the main hall.
They
brought a food bag again. We had bracelets with numbers. Around 11 a.m.
they called my number and took me away. They took me to the previous
interrogation room. Again they interrogated me and then brought me
back.
When it was dark I had to leave again. They took me away, and told me
to take the mattress and blanket.
I walked to the door and I was told
to go back and pick up the bottle of water.
I took them back to the
interrogation centre. They held all four of us in this room again. When
I saw the others I was delighted.
Then they took us one by one. They
gave us our belongings. We were taken by a U.S. vehicle out of the
base.
Then they told us we would have to get out of this vehicle and
drive our own car, and go home. I was so happy. I asked him about my
wallet and my money and my ID.
They started looking for these items
among our camera gear, but didn’t find them. Then they went to look for
the items in the car and didn’t find them. They asked how much money I
had. I told then I had $100 and 25,000 Iraqi dinars (corrects himself)
$100 and 54,000 dinars.
Then they told me to go out of the main
entrance and drive left then right, where we would find an American
checkpoint, where we should drive at a steady pace and not veer left or
right or we would be fired at.
Q: So although you were exhausted you had to drive your own car?
A: Yes. We told them it was not safe, we feared we would be shot at.
Then the American soldiers told us through a translator that we should
go right then left, it would be a safer way.
They took us in their car.
Our own car was being driven by American soldiers behind us. We believe
that in front of us were a number of American vehicles.
At the main
road we were told to get in our own car and drive home.
We weren’t
expecting to make it because we were very frightened.
On the main road
we saw civilian cars travelling. We were so happy. We drove slowly
until the American vehicles were gone. Once the American convoy was
back in their headquarters we drove home very fast.
At home we found a
lot of people waiting for us who knew that we were going to be
released. We didn’t know that we were going to be released. We were so
happy, everyone was joyful.
Then we found Khaled [al-Ramahi, Reuters
Baghdad operations manager].
When I met Khaled I started crying,
because I was so happy. I could hardly walk and I couldn’t feel my
hand.
I had a shower and I couldn’t turn my head because it was
hurting. Many people were coming in and out of our house.
Q: When you were leaving, did the Americans make any threat not to talk about what happened?
A: No.
Q: Did they ask where you lived, did they get your address?
A: Yes.
Q: Have any Americans since then come to your house?
A: No.
Q: During the time you were in detention, did anyone come and look at your house or search your house?
A: No.
Interview ends at 3:20 pm.
Interview with Salem Ureibi
Interview with Reuters journalists Salem Ureibi, Thursday January 8, 6:30 pm, with Andrew Marshall and Khaled al-Ramahi
Marshall begins interview by telling Ureibi that all we need him to
give us is what he remembers about what happened. If he cannot remember
something or is not sure, he should say so.
Q: Tell us about why you went to Falluja on January 2.
A: My work is to cover Falluja and Ramadi. It is normal for me to go to Falluja every day. I got to Falluja around 9 to 9:30.
Q: What did you do then?
A: First of all I went to the Reuters office in Falluja. At around
12:15 I heard from my friends in LBC and CBS, stringers, that there
were American troops in the market, near the mosque. When I arrived
there, there were American troops there and they had a loudspeaker.
They were saying that if anyone knows criminals or thieves, or has any
weapons, please let us know. Then I asked permission from the American
officer to take some pictures.
Some Falluja people said to me, “You are
agents for the Americans, why are you filming?”
Around 12:30 somebody
came and said a helicopter had crashed near Falluja. We went there and
around 1 or 1:15 we arrived at the site. On the way there I saw Ahmad
our stringer and he said he heard an American helicopter had crashed.
Near the site I saw some wreckage in the distance but I did not know
exactly what it was. I wasn’t sure if it was the wreckage of the
helicopter.
There were other helicopters up in the sky and I took some
pictures of them. But these pictures were not enough. I wanted to film
the U.S. troops in the area... Then I set up my camera and tripod in
front of the checkpoint – but far away from the checkpoint – and I put
on my flak jacket. Then American forces headed our way
Q: When exactly did you meet Ahmad and Sattar?
A: I met them on the way to the crash area near the bridge. They were going the same way. They had also heard about it.
Q: So how many people were with you near the checkpoint?
A: There were two cars. At that time it was NBC, Ahmad the stringer,
APTN and Reuters. APTN and LBC were further back. When there was the
shooting we drove back and we warned them.
Q: So you met APTN and LBC after the shooting?
A: Yes.
Q: So how many people were there at the time of the shooting?
A: Ahmad, Ali [NBC stringer], Sattar, Alaa Noury [Baghdad driver] and me.
Q: What happened when you were filming?
A: I took one shot with the camera. Then a Humvee started coming
towards us. With Alaa I quickly got into the car and when we got to the
car they started firing at us.
Q: Did you hear any firing from anywhere else?
A: No. They asked me the same when I was detained.
Q: When you and Alaa were driving away, what was the other car doing?
A: Ahmad’s car was in front and we were behind.
Q: Then what happened?
A: We arrived at a safe place about 2 km away. I gave my tapes to Alaa and told him to go.
Q: Go where?
A: Alaa took the tapes and came back to Baghdad. And then I got into
Ahmad’s car. I had a camera, tripod and flak jacket. I wanted to get
some more pictures because I thought American troops would withdraw
from the area and I could get more pictures. We had been on the east
side and we went to the west side. There were some journalists there
watching, AFP, Iraqis from Falluja. Ahmad drove the car down a dead
end. Then an American tank arrived at high speed to block the way. They
shot one bullet towards me and I fell back.
Q: Was the AFP reporter still around?
A: He was there but nobody spoke to him and we didn’t see him after that.
Q: So what happened to the other journalists who were there?
A: I don’t know. I don’t think anything happened to them. They were in
the area trying to take pictures like us. We were not standing with
each other. We had gone back to our car and we don’t know where the
others went.
Q: Let’s just go back. You said that initially there were many
journalists there watching. What happened to those other journalists?
A: I don’t know. They were doing a tour around the area like us.
Q: Then what happened?
A: I was outside the car. I’m not sure if the others were inside the
car or not. There was a shot from the tank and I fell over. They took
my shoes and cuffed my hands behind my back. They picked me up and put
us in the Humvee. The driver of the Humvee would drive fast and then
brake.
Q: Who was in the Humvee?
A: Me and Ahmad and Sattar and Ali. After half an hour they dragged me
outside and put me in a tank. They put us under the seat in the tank,
the other three, and they put me on top of them. I was on top of Ali
and Ahmad. They were shouting, “Please, Salem we’re doing to die”, but I
couldn’t do anything.
Q: Had you already said you were a Reuters journalist?
A: When we were arrested I shouted “Reuters, Reuters, journalist, journalist.”
Q: What happened in the armoured vehicle.
A: We all felt we were going to die. They drove for about two hours.
The vehicle went up and down, up and down. And then we came to the
base.
They treated us like criminals.
They picked us up and put us
outside on the ground. We were put in a large hall. All the windows
were open and the doors were open and we had to sit on the ground and
wait.
It was very cold. There were around 47 people detained there. We
stayed there till the morning without sleep. They did not let us sleep.
During that night two hooded people and a translator took me for
questioning.
Q: What time was it?
A: I don’t know exactly, but at night. They said if I did not tell the
truth, you will be hurt.
Two Americans were sitting there.
It lasted
more than two hours.
I was shaking because it was cold.
[Ureibi then
demonstrated how he was asked to kneel down with his hands in the air].
I asked them – can I put my hands down, because I want to tell you what
you want, I want to tell them the truth. Then they agreed and I sat
like this. [Ureibi demonstrates kneeling with his hands by his sides].
I told them the story, exactly what I told you now. Afterwards, they
took me to a room. I didn’t know where I was. Then I found that I was
in a shower room. I was there the first night.
Q: Were you alone?
A: Yes.
Q: Then what happened?
A: I stayed there until morning and then they brought the other three
to the shower room. I could not sleep. My hands were tied. How can one
state
[Ureibi looks distressed. Marshall asks if he wants a break. He says no.]
A (cont): They brought the other three at night time, the same night,
not in the early morning. The Americans made us do exercises, they were
saying to us, “Go, up, down, up down.”
[Interview is interrupted by a radio going off. Short break. Interview resumes at 7:10 p.m.]
[Salem demonstrates being made to do press ups, and standing up from a squat position.]
A (cont): They made my other colleagues put their feet around my neck.
There was one soldier, an officer called Jerry. He was good to me. When
he saw I could not do these things, he would allow me to take a break.
But when he went out I had to do the exercises again. It went on for
hours and hours, maybe four or five hours. They put music on the
speakers. Two American soldiers had a torch and shone it in our eyes.
By this time it was morning.
Q: Was this the first morning or the second morning?
A: First morning. Then they gave us some food. But who could eat?
Then
we went to the toilet.
They said no sleep during the day. I don’t
remember everything. Then they took us away to a car, a Humvee. Our
hands were cuffed behind us.
They were saying “Guantanamo”, they were
talking to each other about Guantanamo. They were saying “Goodbye
Baghdad”. I was very frightened at that time. The Humvee was driving up
on a very weird road. I thought they were going to kill us.
It lasted
about half an hour but it seemed to me like 50 hours.
We arrived at our
destination. They opened the vehicle. Then we were taken to separate
rooms.
There was no chairs, I sat on the ground. A black soldier came.
He said “Salem?” I said yes. He told me to stand up and raise my arms.
After one-and-a-half to two hours the same man and a translator came
and took me to a room, the interrogation room. There were three chairs
in the room.
[Phone rings. Interview suspended. Interview restarts at 7.25 p.m.]
A: There were three chairs… I have remembered something from before.
The first night when they came to investigate me and were questioning
me, they were shining a light directly into my eyes. I could not turn
left or right, I had to look straight into the light and answer the
question.
They asked me – what is that blue bruises under your eyes?
I
said it had happened when I had been brought to the base in the tank.
I
want to document all these things. They need to be recorded.
They said:
“We want you to tell us the truth. If you don’t, we know how to make
you talk.”
I told them because I was terrified, I couldn’t think of all
the details. I couldn’t even remember sometimes what I needed to do or
say to them.
The translator told me: “Tell the truth or you will be in
a difficult situation.”
They told me to put my hands on the table in
front of me.
Sometimes when I needed to explain something I moved my
hands and they got angry.
The man who was investigating us, a black
soldier, his eyes were angry.
I said I would tell you the truth, I’m
here to tell the truth, to explain to you what happened.
Then they got
me to sit on the small chair.
He threatened me, he said he would put
the pen in my nose.
I said you are not my enemy I am telling the truth,
and if I forgot something you should let me know and I would answer.
Then the night was over.
Q: So this was the second night?
A: Yes.
Q: So the interrogation you are describing happened at night?
A: Yes, during the second night.
Q: I want to ask about some of the things you reported to us
previously. Is it true that soldiers said they wanted to have sex with
you, and put something in your mouth?
A: Yes, the first night. They would whisper, “look, look, five minutes,
ah ah ah”
I couldn’t see anything, I could just hear them.
They would
whisper: “Please bring your wife here.”
I don’t think the others could
understand what the Americans were saying.
I thought that they were
going to rape us. They were standing at our backs.
They put something
in my mouth. I don’t know what it was exactly, so I don’t want to say.
Maybe an apple, maybe a banana, maybe a shoe.
Q: So what happened after the second night?
A: In the morning they took me in to see the investigator, the black
man, and at the start he was smiling at us. They told me that if I
didn’t tell the truth I would be in trouble.
They asked me where I met
Ahmad, how you know him, what time I arrived at the scene.
They brought
me a map and said there were two bridges where did you come from.
I
told them I did not live in Falluja, but I explained where I had been.
I said I’m not an engineer, I didn’t understand the map they showed me.
They asked me which way I came and which way I went. They said
President Bush knew what was happening to us. When he said that I felt
fine, that meant they weren’t going to kill us.
They brought the map
and showed it to me. They asked me about when I stood near the tank at
the checkpoint.
I told them I took the pictures at the checkpoint, but
the NBC stringer took pictures of the tank moving towards us.
They said,
“You came to us here, we didn’t come to you, why did you come?”
The
investigator would go out and then return…
It is a long story…
I cried. I
never cried before.
Even when my father died, when Saddam killed my
brother, I never cried.
In this situation with the Americans, I cried.
They told me to go and sleep.
They brought a mattress and a dirty
blanket, and I slept.
After noon they woke me up.
They showed me my
cameras and other things.
I said I didn’t have my Thuraya SIM card,
they kept it.
They took the office address in Baghdad. I gave them the
phone number of the Baghdad office.
I got the Thuraya phone. They told
us they would give us a ride outside the camp but we should take care
because maybe someone would shoot us.
We drove in Ahmad’s car. Ahmad
and the others wanted me to sleep at their house overnight but I said
thank you, I want to go back to Baghdad.
Q: Were you made to sign anything?
A: When they gave me my possessions back I signed a piece of paper.
Q: Did you get all your possessions back?
A: Everything except the Thuraya SIM card.
Q: So did the Americans keep the SIM card?
A: Yes.
Q: Was the treatment the worst on the first night and first day? Did it get better after that or was it the same all the time?
A: The third night was better.
Interview ends.
Interview with Sattar Jabar al-Badrani
Interview with Reuters journalist Sattar Jabar al-Badrani, Thursday January 8 at 4 p,m. with Andrew Marshall and Issam Dakroub
[Interviews begins with Marshall explaining that we just want to know
the details he can remember. If he does not remember or is not sure he
should say so]
Q: Where were you when you first heard the helicopter had come down?
A: I was praying at the mosque with Ali. The Forkan mosque in Falluja
Q: Which Ali?
A: The cameraman who works with NBC
Q: Did you see many people you knew at the mosque?
A: There were plenty of people there. I’m not sure if they would remember me or not.
Q: How did you hear that the helicopter had come down?
A: We came out of the mosque and people were saying that a helicopter crashed somewhere near the new bridge.
Q: What did you do then?
A: I went with Ali and Ahmad in my car.
Q: Where did you meet Ahmad.
A: He wasn’t praying at the mosque. I met him outside. We drove towards the new bridge.
Q: What happened next?
A: We wanted to drive towards the crash site but we couldn’t find a way
there.
We drove towards the dam and met Abu Laith [Salem Ureibi] there.
We found a way to get close to the crash site.
We arrived there and saw
American tanks parked about 300-400 metres away.
We couldn’t go any
further so we stopped there. Abu Laith and Ali wanted to take pictures
of the tanks.
Abu Laith set up his tripod. Whether he took pictures or
not, I don’t know. The tank started moving towards us. The tank started
firing.
Q: Did you see it firing?
A: No, we heard shooting, we didn’t see it.
Q: Was the firing from the direction of the Americans, or did it also come from other directions?
A: We think it was coming from the Americans. We left the area immediately to get away from the tank.
Q: When you heard the firing were you inside the car or outside?
A: When the tank started moving we got into the car. As we drove we
heard the shooting.
We headed towards Falluja. Abu Laith got into our
car. I don’t know where Abu Laith’s car went.
Then we went back to the
same place where he had tried to find a way to the site.
We talked to
people there and they said there had been a helicopter crash. We drove
down a small road to a spot where we could see the American tanks
parked 200 metres away.
More media cars arrived, I don’t know from
which organisation, and they stopped in the same place we were
standing.
As we were stopped and figuring out how to take pictures, the
American tank started moving towards us. When the tank approached
everyone left in cars in different directions.
We drove down a dead-end
street and stopped there. The tank came towards us.
The minute the tank
arrived we were asked to put our hands in the air.
We lay on the
ground.
They opened the car trunk, then made me lie on the ground, and
a soldier put a foot on my shoulder with a gun pointed at me.
Another
Humvee came. They took everything from us, wallets and things. They
handcuffed us. They looked in the car and found the cameras.
Q: Was there anything else in the car apart from cameras?
A: A can of petrol.
They took us into the armoured car.
They put bags
on our heads. They made us lie down.
They drove us to somewhere, a
gathering place for the Americans.
The car was stopped for about an
hour and we were lying down in the same position.
Then they moved us to
an APC that had an electric door, I could tell from the sound. They
lifted the seats and made us lie on the floor.
They locked down the
seats. I still had a bag on my head and was handcuffed.
Abu Laith was
put on the seats that we were under. The vehicle started to move.
There
was no air and we couldn’t see anything.
When the vehicle was moving,
we lay like that for more than two hours. A soldier put his foot on our
backs and shone torchlight at us.
My chin was rubbing against the floor
and was bleeding. When I tried to shift my head, the noise of the
engine was too loud in my ear. [Shows abrasions on his chin.]
We
arrived at the U.S. base at a farm. When the APC moved inside I thought
we were going to die. They pulled us out and pushed us to the ground.
Somebody came and took my name. He put my name on a label on my chest.
They took us in a truck into the base, along with another two people
who we didn’t know where they came from. It was already dark and they
took us to the main headquarters.
As we went inside they removed the
head-bags and handcuffs. They made us stay there for nearly an hour,
with other prisoners. We sat down and they gave us one blanket between
two. We were already barefoot, with no shoes.
They kept saying: “Fuck
you” and I realised that this was a kind of curse. About 12 midnight
they told us “No sleep, no sleep”.
They left us about 12 and we slept.
Q: But you said at 12 they said “no sleep, no sleep”
A: When we got there it was already dark and every time we try to lie
down they said “no sleep.”
At 12 they left us and then they came back
periodically.
If they saw us sleeping they would wake us up and say no
sleeping.
Around 10 in the morning they found me asleep. They took me
to another room alone and placed a bag on my head again.
Then they
brought me back to my colleagues. They brought me food.
I am not used
to such food and I did not eat.
At 12 midday they asked me to come.
They took me to a kind of caravan where there was one Lebanese and two
Americans for interrogation.
It was so hot inside and I was so scared.
They told me to take off my dishdasha. I had found some shoes and had
picked them up and put them on. Then the interrogation began.
I told
them the things I told you.
I was on my knees [demonstrates kneeling
with hands raised].
They told me to slap my own face.
Q: Who told you?
A: The Lebanese translator.
I slapped my face and the translator said
it was not hard enough.
He said he would go out of the caravan and from
outside he wanted to hear me slap my face six times.
He said if he
didn’t hear it he would come back to do it.
I slapped my face.
He said:
“Are you a woman?”
He asked me to pick up a shoe, took it and beat me
on the face with it.
Then he made me take the shoe in my mouth.
He made
me put my finger in my anus then he made me smell my hand and put it in
my nose, and keep the shoe in my mouth, with my other hand in the air.
He told me I looked like an elephant.
Every time I mentioned God they
would beat me.
The interrogators said they had found RPG launchers.
I
said: “I swear to God, no”.
Then they beat me.
One of the Americans
kicked me.
I was there for approximately two hours.
They told me to get
up and get dressed.
I put my clothes and shoes on they put the head-bag
on me.
People in the prison were hitting me all the time.
Q: They would hit you with their fists?
A: With their fists.
They took me to a room and made me lie there.
I
was the first one to be interrogated and at one time I was able to lift
the bag on my head and saw them taking Ahmad away.
[Interview interrupted briefly when somebody enters room]
A: I saw them taking Ahmad away, then Ali, then Abu Laith.
It was cold
inside and the windows were open so one of the soldiers got me a
blanket.
At around 10:30 or 11 I joined my colleagues again in one
room.
The torture began.
They played loud music.
They made us do
push-ups.
They made us put our legs on the wall and do push-ups.
They
brought small bottles of water and made us drink it all.
There were two
soldiers.
They would whisper in our ears but we couldn’t understand.
Sometimes they would whisper “one, two, three…” and then shout loudly
in our ears.
They shone torches in our eyes.
Then another two soldiers
came.
They made us lie on our bellies and shake our backsides in the
air.
They were taking pictures with a camera.
They would say something
to their colleagues and they would all have a big laugh.
I had my watch
and I kept looking at it, it was 3 a.m. and then 4 a.m. and still we
were there.
They made me put my head against the window, on the wood
pane, and they would come angrily with a stick and bang it on the pane.
I could smell alcohol on the breath of one of the Americans.
They made
us stand with our backs to the wall with our hands held out.
Then again
push-ups.
I did 10 and he asked me to do more.
I did another 10 and he
asked me to carry on.
Abu Laith couldn’t do it because he’s bigger than
me.
I wanted to tell the Americans that I would do it in place of Abu
Laith but I was afraid he would think I was not really tired.
At the
end, around six, they placed tape on our mouths.
They made us walk in
circles for more than half an hour.
I fell down.
They kicked me and
asked me to stand up.
I couldn’t take it any more because I have a
stomach ulcer.
Ahmad had already fallen on the ground.
I was afraid for
Ahmad.
I took off the tape and I vomited.
I kept vomiting deliberately
when I found that meant I could sit out.
They mocked the way I was
vomiting.
When I realised they didn’t like me retching I would do
it again every time they came in.
I stayed like this for 45 minutes
then it was sunrise.
I asked for a blanket and they said no.
I asked to
go to the hall and they said no.
We all sat down.
Then it was morning.
I wanted to go to the toilet.
He said drink water.
I asked to go to the toilet, he said go to the
toilet.
He put a bag over my head.
He took me from where we were to the
toilet, which was far, around 150-200 metres.
He was beating me until I
got to the toilet.
When I finished at the toilet we went back and I got
the same treatment, he was striking me.
We got to the hall.
We all went
to the toilet and we were all treated the same.
The same soldier, he
was very low and cheap.
There was no-one like him, he was low and full
of hate.
They brought us food.
We had not eaten for two days, so we had
to eat.
We ate a little bit.
Then they told us to get up, they took us
outside, put the bags on our heads.
We sat down.
We heard them talking
among themselves, laughing.
They were saying “Cuba, Cuba.”
Then they
put us in a Humvee, lying down.
They took us for a 30-minute drive. They took us to a military camp. They took us next to barbed wire.
An
Iraqi translator said we need three things from you: face your heads
down, don’t go near the barbed wire, and don’t try to escape.
They were
hitting us.
They took us to a room. The prisoners called this room the
“torture chamber.”
They put us there.
They brought in 20 other
prisoners into the chamber.
I just remembered that in the earlier place
they gave us badges with the letter “C” on it.
Every soldier who saw it
hit us.
One told me, you are from Falluja – “boom.”
Everywhere we went
we got the same treatment.
They took us out of the chamber when it
became night.
They didn’t give us food.
They took us to the toilet and
then back to the same place.
Then they gave us paper bracelets with
numbers.
A woman soldier came and wrote our prisoner numbers on them.
They marked Ahmad number 1 and me number 3.
And they did the same to
the other prisoners.
After that a soldier came and told me “Come.”
I
went with him. He took me outside to a tent. He told me sit down.
I sat
down. Then he started interrogating me. He asked me where I came from,
what I did.
He asked me about my every movement. I felt there was a
difference between this place and the place we were before.
This
soldier was only talking to me. The place I was before, the soldiers
were monsters. This second place was much better. The soldier had
“military police” on his uniform.
Then they took me back to the room
and took Ahmad. Then they took us back to the chamber. I did not know
where Ali and Abu Laith were.
The investigator told me he would call me
again for interrogation, I said fine. Then they took us to a hall in
the prison 200 metres away. They gave me two blankets and a bottle of
water.
The soldiers inside welcomed us. They gave me a mattress. I was
very tired and very cold. They changed my blankets because they were
very thin. We had supper.
I also went to the toilet. We were not given
water in the toilet. They banned anyone from taking water to the
toilet. Then we went back to the hall and we slept.
We woke up at dawn
and prayed. I couldn’t wash for prayers.
They brought us breakfast. We
ate. Then we went back to sleep.
At noon, we were not given food. We
only had two meals a day.
I have now remembered that before I slept the
night before, I was interrogated again. We had similar exchanges, and
then I came back and slept.
I didn’t see Ahmad. I asked people in the
hall next door and they told me Ahmad was there and Ali was in a
different hall, but I didn’t know where Abu Laith was.
We performed
noon prayers then around 2:30 they took us to the toilet. We were
allowed to go to the toilet three times a day – in the morning, at noon
and at night.
There was an Iraqi there, I gave him the address of our
house so when he was released he would tell my family I was OK.
This
guy had said he might be released the next day. At night, around 7 to
8, a soldier read out a number. He called out a number, a guy next to
me told me it was my number.
The soldier, when I walked up to him, told
me to bring my mattress and come.
A guy next to me thought I was being
released so asked me to tell his family he was OK.
I took my
belongings, walked out and found Ahmad there.
Then Ali was brought in. There was still no sign of Abu Laith.
A soldier asked me in Arabic “Have you been fucked?” I said no.
They were all the time asking us if
we speak English, and I was saying no.
They would speak to me and I
wouldn’t understand.
They took me and Ahmad and Ali to a chamber, but
still no sign of Abu Laith.
Then some 10 minutes later they took me out
first.
They took off the bracelet.
A soldier brought me a letter in
English and told me to sign. I signed it.
He brought me my watch. I
didn’t know what was in the letter but I just signed it. We all signed
the letter.
Q: Ahmad says he did not sign a letter.
A: I don’t know. I signed.
They told me to stand there.
Then Ahmad, Ali
and Abu Laith came, and did the same.
The interrogator told me in
Arabic, “Go into the American car, and near the gate of the camp you
will take your car and go home.”
From what he told me, I felt safe, and
I was sure that I would be released.
I asked him about my wallet and ID
card, and my money. He said how much money? I said 30,000 Iraqi dinars
and $20 dollars. He said “they are in the bag.”
We looked in the bag,
we did not find them.
Until now I have not got my wallet and IDs. This
soldier left. I saw another soldier speaking to Ahmad and Ali. This
soldier took the phone number of the agency and said “If we find your
money and ID we’ll call you.”
Then I asked about my money and my ID. He
told me to go to the car. We went to the car, we looked in the car, we
didn’t find the money and the IDs but we found our shoes and a pack of
cigarettes.
He told us, “Listen to me, drive at 40-50 km an hour until
you get to the main road. Don’t stop.
Abu Laith tried to shake his
hand. He said “No, you are a prisoner, I will not shake your hand.”
Before we left, we exchanged greetings with the soldiers.
We walked to
the car, we got into the car.
I then offered a soldier a cigarette. He
took it.
I was so pleased that he let me go, so although I had hated
him I offered him a cigarette.
He lit my cigarette. We drove off.
We
were followed by four Humvees. I was smoking in the car, I hadn’t
smoked or eaten much for the past four days.
We got to the main gate.
We went out of the American car and we went into ours.
We asked for
directions. They said they would give a description of the car to their
checkpoints so they did not fire at us.
They gave us directions – go
right, then left, because I didn’t know how to get to Falluja from
there.
So we drove to the main street.
When we got there, the U.S.
convoy drove back. There were two tanks driving in front of us. We were
scared. I drove past the tanks, then sped away.
I was very happy.
Abu
Laith asked us to stop and drop him off.
We dropped him off and we went
home.
We didn’t know who was following our case. We found Khaled
[Ramahi. Reuters Baghdad operations manager] and our relatives.
Everyone was very happy, people were firing in the air.
Fadel [Ahmad’s brother] was there.
Happy as I was that we were released, I was also
happy that we had someone backing us.
We went to Fadel’s house and we
found Mr Khaled and we were very happy.
I cannot describe our joy. We
were also very happy with the agency [Reuters].
Q: Do you remember anything more?
A: What I have said about torture is only a small part of what happened. I don’t remember it all.
Q: Was the first part of the detention better than the second half?
A: Yes, this is true.
Q: Do you remember how many days you spent in the first place?
A: The first day we were taken there around 5:30 or 6. We stayed there
during the night. We spent the day, then we also slept, then the next
morning about 9 we were moved.
Executive summary of an 82nd Airborne
Division investigation into the alleged treatment of Reuters
Journalists by soldiers in the division. 28 JAN 04
REUTERS/NBC EMPLOYEE DETENTION
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
This investigation was
appointed by the Commanding General, 82d Airborne Division on 10
January 2004, after receipt of allegations in a letter from Reuters
dated 9 January 2004. Previous to this investigation, an inquiry was
conducted into the propriety of detaining 4 Iraqis on 2 January 2004
who claimed to be employees of the press. The results of previous
inquiries into the facts and circumstances leading to the detention of
three Reuters and one NBC employee have been considered and included in
this report of investigation. Likewise, the information received from
Reuters dated 16 January 2004, including detailed statements of three
Reuters employees, have been considered as part of this investigation.
A similar request for information directed toward NBC concerning their
employee’s involvement and treatment while temporarily detained has not
yet been answered or received.
On 2 January 2004, an Observation Helicopter (OH)-58 of Task Force All
American (TF AA) was shot down to the west of Fallujah. TF AA soldiers
quickly moved to the site, set a cordon to secure the crash site,
recovered the remains of CPT Kimberly Hampton and evacuated the wounded
co-pilot. While manning the cordon, soldiers identified two vehicles
(one a blue sedan) and 8 Iraqi males at a distance determined to be
less than 200 meters (despite some accounts of perceptions of greater
distance) congregating outside of but near a house/compound. (See
attached diagram.) Among the individuals was one person wearing a blue
vest, with the word “Press” visible across the chest, and a tripod and
camera were being set up. These persons were not initially deemed a
threat. Coalition soldiers then received fire from the vicinity of this
group of persons and returned fire. Upon the return of fire, the eight
Iraqi males got into their vehicles and quickly drove away from the
area. Coalition soldiers witnessed individuals carrying an AK-47 and an
RPG into one of the vehicles. A Bradley Fighting Vehicle pursued the
vehicles without effect for a short distance. Several soldiers stated
that they witnessed puffs of smoke which they identified as rounds
being fired at them from one of the fleeing vehicles. The unit was
unable to detain any individuals during this initial contact.
After losing contact with the vehicles, the unit returned to the site
the individuals were seen leaving from and conducted a cordon and
search of the house/compound (initial contact diagram). During this
search, the unit captured 4 AK-47s, 1 Shotgun, and 1 air rifle, 12 AK
47 magazines, 1 .357 pistol with 80 rounds, 5 9mm magazines, 1
bandolier, and assorted camera equipment. Approximately 30 minutes
later the blue sedan was seen to the west of the crash site. TF AA
soldiers positively identified the vehicle as the same vehicle from the
previous engagement. TF AA soldiers again attempted to stop the
individuals. Again the blue sedan attempted to flee the area but turned
down a dead end road and stopped. Upon initial contact with the
personnel in the blue sedan, soldiers directed the four Iraqis to get
on the ground. Two individuals complied with the request, but the
individual in the Press vest attempted to make a phone call after
getting out of the vehicle. The NCO in charge took the phone from the
individual and hung it up due to security concerns, not knowing if the
phone would activate an IED or not. The fourth Iraqi tried to open the
trunk of the vehicle; a soldier grabbed this individual and used force
to put him on the ground not knowing what weapon or explosive device
might be in the trunk. No weapons were found during the search of the
vehicle, but the individuals were detained in order to question them
concerning the earlier engagement. All personal items, to include
identification and expired press passes, were taken from the Iraqis,
bagged and inventoried on site. The soldiers who made the initial
decision to detain the Iraqis knew, or reasonably believed that the
detention might receive extra scrutiny because of the presence of the
press passes, however, the soldiers clearly believed that these same
Iraqis had attacked them previously. The decision to detain these
individuals was appropriate and allowable under the Rules of Engagement.
The four Iraqi individuals were next hooded, flex-cuffed and
transported to Forward Operating Base (FOB) Volturno in the back of an
All American Bradley Stinger Fighting Vehicle (BSVF). The ride was
typically rough and quarters were cramped, but not significantly more
so than soldiers are routinely subject to during combat operations.
Once arriving at FOB Volturno the individuals were removed from the
BSFV and in-processed at the detention facility along with almost 70
other individuals captured that day during operations that included the
discovery and capture of personnel and equipment at a weapons market in
Fallujah. During in-processing, the individuals underwent the routine
medical screening including being fully undressed and given a cavity
search, to include using a tongue depressor within their mouth. The
four individuals spent approximately 36 hours at the FOB Volturno
detention facility and were extensively interrogated before being
transported to the Division Central Confinement Point (DCCP) at FOB St. Mere. The individuals were again interrogated at the DCCP. After
completion of the interrogations at FOB St. Mere it was determined that
the individuals could provide no additional information and were
released on 5 Jan 04. One significant reason for continued detention,
was the absence of 15 minutes of video which could have been an
indication of advance notice of an attack on the OH58 but which was
explained in the statements sent by Reuters dated 16 January 2004. The
individuals were detained for approximately 60 hours; therefore, their
detention was not made subject to a review of a military magistrate as
required by internal procedures for detention of individuals past 72
hours.
In statements supplied by Reuters of the three personnel under their
employ, the individuals alleged that during their detention and initial
screening that they were mistreated by coalition soldiers. In response
to the receipt of these statements, this investigation remained open in
order to fully investigate and determine if these individuals were
mistreated during their detainment. Despite requests for a statement of
treatment from the detained NBC employee, no statement has yet been
received from NBC or their employee. Each of the soldiers responsible
for the care and handling of the four detainees have been interviewed
and provided statements under oath; none admit or report knowledge of
any physical abuse or torture. The detainees were purposefully and
carefully put under stress, to include sleep management, in order to
facilitate interrogation; they were not tortured. In the statement of
the first individual, who has been employed by Reuters since 1991, he
stated that he was made to do physical activities during his
interrogation, but was given a break when exhausted, that soldiers
threatened him if he did not tell the truth, that he was cold, that he
was not allowed to sleep at times, however, he specifically did not
state or allege that he was hit or physically abused during the
interrogation process or detention. He alleged that something was stuck
in his mouth, but was not sure what it was exactly. “Maybe an apple,
maybe a banana, maybe a shoe.” The item placed in his mouth was likely
a tongue depressor. Overall he complains of uncomfortable treatment;
his statement is credible.
Substantially different from his account, two of the three detained
Reuters employees’ statements allege they were physically abused and
made to do degrading and disrespectful acts during their detention at
FOB Volturno. These two individuals are cousins, one of which has
worked for Reuters only since July 2003 and the other of which is his
driver and not directly employed by Reuters. The cousins allege they
were continuously hit, and that during their interrogation they had a
shoe stuck in their mouth and were told to stick a finger in their anus
and then lick it or smell it. Their allegations on these points are not
credible. Revealingly, their two statements are very similar to each
other and dissimilar to the long-time employee’s statement. Both
cousins all too similarly allege the finger incident, that a shoe was
placed in their mouth, and that when they said “I swear to God” that
they would get hit or kicked. Further, in the interview conducted by
Reuters, one of the individuals stated “I had my watch and I kept
looking at it...” however, according to the evidence/property custody
document, and standard procedure, his watch was taken from him during
in-processing. The cousins both allege they were released from
detention at night, but the long-time Reuters employee correctly
reported they were released during the afternoon. The cousins’
statements are not credible and may have been purposefully exaggerated
as part of an anti-coalition information campaign.
Although no specific incidents of abuse were found, TF AA has
reinforced standards of appropriate handling of detainees. As part of
this process, TF AA is conducting a thorough inspection of all of its
temporary detention facilities, directing that detainees be transported
in cargo HUMMWVs whenever possible, and reemphasizing that all
detainees are treated with dignity and respect during their detention,
transportation, interrogation and release.
kewe archives 